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      45 Mins

      DE&I in the marketing sector - how can we all do better?

      DE&I in the marketing sector - how can we all do better? Featured Image
      Published on May 20, 2022 by Jon Payne

      Inequality and exclusion are facts of life for many people, all over the globe. While there's little the likes of you and I can do to make global change, we are able to try to make our little corner of it better.

      I'm far perfect and Noisy Little Monkey has a long way to go which is why we run these events - me and the team here can learn loads and we hope that by sharing what we're learning, you'll learn some stuff too. Feel free to share with anyone who you think will find it useful! 

      Thank you to our amazing panelists for spending time to educate and inspire the rest of us.

      Those panelists are:

      Azeem Ahmad - Host of Azeem Digital Asks podcast which often amplifies under-represented voices.

      Joyann Boyce - Founder of Arima & Co which helps brands be more inclusive in their comms.

      Natalie Lam - Host of Just A Girl, the podcast about intersectional feminism in the music industry.

      Sunjay Singh - Co founder of LifeMedia UK the video agency focussed on creating leads.

      Chloe Smith - SEO Manager at Blue Array and creator of LGBT+ SEO FREAK apparel.

      Andy Thornton -  Senior Digital Marketing Exec in Noisy Little Monkey's HubSpot dept, and king, basically.



      Video Transcript:

      [00:00:00] Katie Roberts: Welcome to the diversity and inclusion HubSpot user group, Jon, and I will introduce ourselves and then the panelists introduce themselves.

      Do you want start?

      [00:00:09] Jon Payne: Yeah. Um, hi, I'm Jon I'm 52 year old, white, but quite pink, bald guy.

      [00:00:17] Katie Roberts: What are your pronouns?

      [00:00:18] Jon Payne: My pronouns are he /him.

      [00:00:20] Katie Roberts: I'm Katie. I am a, do I have to, so my age I'm 26 youthful um, white woman, my pronouns. Are she /her and we are your hosts today, did that feel uncomfortable for you.

      [00:00:34] Jon Payne: Yeah.

      [00:00:34] Katie Roberts: Why do you think that is?

      [00:00:36] Jon Payne: Because new things. Um, yeah, let's get everybody else to introduce themselves and let's talk about that.

      [00:00:42] Katie Roberts: Okay, cool. Andy, you're up.

      [00:00:45] Andy Thornton: Oh dear Lord, hi everyone. Uh, I am a youthful, I like that, masculine presenting person, exceptional, uh, brunette buzzcut, rimmed glasses, and a striped shirt. And my pronouns are officially he / they, but I think from about yesterday, he / him so sorry to ruin all of your messaging there.

      That's me.

      [00:01:10] Katie Roberts: Azeem?

      [00:01:11] Azeem Ahmad: Uh, hi, my name is Azeem, I am absolutely not sharing my age. Uh, I am an Asian male, uh, of brown complexion, often wearing glasses, but today I am not, and I have a shaved head and much lovefor the many of the people that I am sharing this virtual room with. That's me

      [00:01:35] Katie Roberts: Chloe you're up.

      [00:01:37] Chloe Smith: I am a person in their mid twenties, um, female presenting, uh, with slightly orange hair. It was more obnoxious before. Um, and my pronouns are she, they

      [00:01:51] Katie Roberts: Joyann.

      [00:01:53] Joyann Boyce: Oh, I was enjoying it and I was like, Ooh, who's next? Oh me. Hi, I'm Joyann. I am a black woman who is of legal age to have this conversation. I have shoulder length locks and a lot of my perspectives will be coming from my background, which is black, British and black Caribbean,

      [00:02:14] Katie Roberts: Natalie.

      [00:02:15] Natalie Lam: Yes, hello. Um, I am Natalie and I am a 28 year old Asian woman of olive slash yellow, depending on if you're racist, um, complexion. Um, that's all from me. I'm allowed to say joke.

      [00:02:33] Katie Roberts: Sunjay,

      you're up.

      [00:02:38] Sunjay Singh: Um, hi everyone. I'm Sunjay uh, he / him is great. Um, British Indian wonderful locks of hair on my head. Um, unlike Jon and Azeem, I'm afraid . Um, devilishly good looking, thanks.

      [00:02:53] Katie Roberts: Couldn't agree more.

      [00:02:57] Jon Payne: Okay. Let's begin the shaming.. No, wait. I was making so many horrible errors before everybody joined. We were making jokes about me being shamed.

      I'll tell you the thing that is funny is my head colour is very nearly Chloe's hair colour. Um, uh, because I'm very excited and I've had caffeine today. Um, I did want to talk about how that made me uncomfortable, cause I remember watching it, um, Well, it's like six months ago when Microsoft did that thing. And, um, the two people were hosting it in a very robotic way.

      Um, certainly not as eloquently as, as our lovely panelists and yourself describe themselves as like, come on, what's this how ridiculous. And then I thought, oh, they're just doing an audio description that isn't normally available. Um, for people who are visually impaired. So it made me uncomfortable. It still makes me a bit uncomfortable because I think, I don't know.

      There's something about saying that stuff about yourself, um, feels a bit uncomfortable. How do you guys feel talking about it? How do you people, sorry, I keep saying guys. Team, how are we feeling about it?

      [00:04:00] Joyann Boyce: I think it's funny. Cause we're all marketers here. And when you say it in a marketing sense, we know people perceive things differently.

      That's our whole jobs to make people perceive things. So for me, I never thought about it until I was asked to do it. No ****, the things I say, Ooh, can I swear? I never checked.

      Um, the things people perceive will interpret how they understand things. Like I can say a lot of things about, um, black British culture, but I was, I moved here when I was nine. So there's going to be a whole bunch of stuff in the nineties and eighties. I'm like, I don't get it. And I might say, I hate it all.

      And if someone walks away with that perception, Joyann speaks for every black British person that caveat. No, I don't. You shouldn't think that anyway, but people online, all of us tend to go by our shortcuts.

      [00:04:53] Katie Roberts: And I guess with, um, maybe particularly you, Andy and Chloe, I think people might often presume your pronouns based on their perception of what gender is.

      So how, how does it feel when everyone uses the pronouns and announces themselves with their pronouns, does that....

      [00:05:15] Andy Thornton: yeah, it's a loaded question, but it's great. I also want it to say, I'm just going to ask you really any on Jon. Um, it doesn't make me uncomfortable because I have to think about it all the time of how I'm perceived and the immediate markers, that people that gonna look at me and be like that. And I'm white. So that's, you know, you as a white person, don't have to think about the fact you're white a lot, um, as a cis person, don't have to think about the fact, you're cis a lot.

      So, yeah, I think that's, it's quite an interesting exercise for people who normally don't have to think about that descriptives. And in terms of pronouns, it makes this whole thing so much more relaxing because otherwise you spend. Like a good 10% of your brain and Chloe if you have this or not, but a good 10% of your brain is like, oh, is someone going to get it wrong?

      I'm not going to have to correct them. Is it a safe space to correct them? What do I do? Whereas it's everyone just does it at the start. No drama can just get on with my


      [00:06:13] Chloe Smith: I felt like 10% is low-balling that number ... It's it's high. Um, probably I am. I can't. I hate saying I have the benefit of passing is one of my pronouns, um, quite regularly, obviously.

      Um, but especially in terms of like going towards more medical stuff, I don't experience kind of the discrimination towards trans people because I just kind of go along with, yeah, that's what I was assigned at birth, let's just roll with it and I, this is kind of dysphoric but also it it's just easier.

      And that kind of rolls into work as well. Sometimes it is it's rubbish, but it's kind of easier sometimes.

      [00:06:57] Jon Payne: What about, what about you Azeem?

      [00:07:02] Azeem Ahmad: uh, in terms of pronouns? Uh, I'm happy to share them. I think going by what my esteemed fellow panelists just said, I think one of the things I literally had a discussion about this morning was that I used to work, uh, with a colleague who, uh, at birth, they were female and then transitions or changed their pronouns to they / them.

      And I think when I recorded my podcast with Andy, plug, please listen to it. It's called the Azeem Digital Asks podcast. Um, I, I mentioned to Andy that look, uh, this is something that I am trying to learn about and I'm going to make mistakes along the way. And I might accidentally refer to you by your old pronouns, but I'd always say like, please know, that comes from a place of learning and it's genuinely a mistake.

      I think. That is the big thing for me. If I, if I make a mistake and I refer to somebody by their incorrect pronouns, it's not deliberate. And that's the thing that I was trying to basically get across to say, I'm learning and I'm not deliberately trying to invoke bad memories of your past. So I think it's difficult because it's been over 21 and then some years, uh, only knowing a handful of pronouns and then learning more is a bit difficult, but I'm mindful that I've, I've spoken a lot.

      So now I

      I'm going to shut up

      [00:08:29] Katie Roberts: I think that's a really good point though, Azeem, because everybody here is from like a different marginalised group. So it's not like you're going to understand everything there is to know about gender equality or, you know, so I think we're all learning. That's the point of we're trying to make the safe space so that we can all, I mean, probably not me and Jon, but we can all teach each other and learn from each other.

      I, I mean, you'll try and get the teaching. I'm guessing as that.

      [00:08:54] Jon Payne: Yeah.

      Thanks everybody.

      [00:09:01] Andy Thornton: I do feel. Yeah. Thanks Jon, for taking that. Um, I do feel like you can really tell intent, there's a difference between somebody accidentally getting a pronoun wrong and correcting themselves moving on. Fine. And somebody being like, oh, sorry, pronouns is so hard. It's like, you've learned different names every day.

      Like, you're fine. It's not that deep. Get it, get it. Right. Um, and I think it's the same of like a lot of marginalisations that I'd be really interested to hear about like how some of the other people in this call, I know Natalie, I think we've kind of have some conversations. Well, I've seen you talk about this on Twitter.

      That's very different than we have conversations about it. Um, but this thing of like, you can, it's all well and good being like, oh, I didn't know. But then what are you actually doing to find out? And there's a line between getting something wrong when you're trying, but also being like, oh, well we're not gonna, I didn't know that.

      So sorry, but then not actually making an effort.

      [00:10:01] Joyann Boyce: So I related to, and I'll be interested, Natalie and Sunjay and Azeem, even if you've ever had this, I related to when people try and guess my country of origin and I tell them that they're wrong, but they're like oh no but Jamaican. I was like, no, I told you Trinidad, you're going to learn a new word today.

      And I feel that's as humans. There's a lot of the times we're very self-centered. And if you can relate an experience, so something that you've experienced and you make an effort once I was like, oh, it's a similar -ish feeling cool. I'm not going to mess it up again because I know what it's like when I feel that we had the country of origin things.

      [00:10:40] Sunjay Singh: That's an interesting point because my truth is, and I'm always embarrassed to say this. I was more nervous about what Azeem was going to say, because I was like, I introduced myself as British Indian and he might not say the word British, am I a sellout? If I say British Indian it's like, God damn, what's Azeem going to say, I was like, oh, can't you just go first?

      Okay. That's my truth. I was like more worried about that as opposed to, to anything else, but that's just because that's how I, that that is how I identify. I'm definitely, I wouldn't be at home in India, be like, get me back to Britain Priti. Um, so yeah, I think like, that's, it's an interesting one because you do identify so much and Joyann and Joyann your, your point about.

      You know, Jamaica and Trinidad, try telling my Welsh uncle with a turban and a beard that he's English and he would, he would lose his mind, you know? And that's like across the, across the River Severn there. So yeah, people do don't realise it when it's like unfamiliar to them do they?. So, um, but yeah, the, the intent piece is very interesting.

      I had a, I had a client once who was good as gold, really lovely bloke. And we're on the phone and we finished conversation. And then he says to me, Sunjay, I don't know what your religious belief is. That's a bizarre sentence. So I didn't say anything because I was a little bit shocked and then he says, so happy Ramadan.

      It was from such a pure place. I didn't even have the heart to just say anything. So I just said, thanks and I just put the phone down. And I felt so guilty. I was like, I'm not even Muslim, I now I've just pretended and I didn't know where that lie ends maybe it's today maybe. But yeah,

      [00:12:28] Katie Roberts: Natalie when Sunjay was talking about, and Joyann was talking about like the whole British Indian thing and guess people guessing where you're from.

      You looked like some of it was resonating with you doing. Thoughtful nods. Did you want to add anything on that? Yes.

      [00:12:44] Natalie Lam: Um, the reason I didn't say British and it's obviously no criticism to anybody who says that is just because if I ever say I'm British, um, white people don't like that for some reason. Um, they just won't accept the fact that, um, I am, which is why I always go for the default Asian specifically Chinese.

      Um, just because it stops the whole, where are you really from? And blah it's. I know, I know that it is catering to white people and I shouldn't have to do it, but we all will see in a white world, well, in the west anyway. Um, so yeah, and it is uncomfortable introducing myself, but that's because I hate talking about myself.

      So. Yeah, but

      [00:13:25] Katie Roberts: it's, it's all about getting uncomfortable with the different elements of it as well, because some of it is so that we're comfortable with introducing our pronouns and so that trans people and people under that umbrella feel that it's, we're being proactive about it and not just kind of catering to them because, oh, we now know a trans person, but it's also for people who are maybe visually impaired, who wants to be able to imagine, or, you know, they, they won't be having the same experiences.

      People who can see the screen as we can. So I think there's lots of different reasons why we should be comfortable with being uncomfortable and, and the more we do it, the less uncomfortable we will be

      [00:14:02] Andy Thornton: Can I? Oh no you go.

      [00:14:04] Joyann Boyce: I was just going to say, but also, cause you know, I'm always going to take you back to marketing cause that's where my brain is, but we should all already have a description for ourselves.

      If we were all writing our own. alt text which I just clocked and I'm just like, I have not described myself in alt-text I will describe, I will do for the clients, but have I done it for a picture of myself? And what would I put? You

      [00:14:26] Katie Roberts: You just called us all out apart from maybe Andy?

      [00:14:29] Andy Thornton: Yeah, I do it routinely

      [00:14:34] Jon Payne: Chloe's pretty hot in the SEOs

      [00:14:37] Chloe Smith: No,

      Chloe forgets every single time I'm well-intentioned. And every single time I know that I need to write all text for an image that I'm going to post on twitter or something. And then I forget. And then I feel terrible because I can't go back and edit it.

      [00:14:51] Andy Thornton: I only remember because I make them funny.

      So I write little jokes about it. I'm like, Andy looks really good today. And honestly, he didn't iron his shirt, but it's working for him like in the alt text. And then that amuses me and I feel like then they're getting something from that

      [00:15:06] Katie Roberts: It's actually a really good tip to make it funny because it encourages, it might be a bit of a niche tip, but it's definitely, yeah, James is definitely, um, encouraged me to do it because I will take any opportunity to be hilarious.

      So I think it's, um, it's a good way to encourage people to do who might be a little bit uncomfortable. with it,

      [00:15:26] Jon Payne: Richard Jenkins in the chat is very, as a big fan of alt text. I'd be interested to know actually Richard, since you're such a fan of alt texts, I think I know which one Richard, Richard Jenkins you are.

      Um, do you, you want accuracy before hilarity in alt text I presume. Or do you want both? Um, and I know you don't speak for everybody with a visual impairment. I'm just interested to know your personal point of view since we've had lunch. Um, I tell what we're going to do a thing where we just chatted about the news and all of that kind of stuff, but everybody in the room understands the equality. Isn't a place where we are inclusivity. Isn't a place that we've achieved and diversity, isn't a place that we've achieved. Let me know in the chat. If you think that all of those things we've ticked the box, everybody, and, um, the world is an equal diverse, oh, the world of marketing is an equal, diverse, and inclusive place.

      Um, if you, if you think no, please feel free to tell us

      that too

      [00:16:17] Katie Roberts: Vicky Mills is just put something really interesting in the chat where there's a reminder bot that you can follow. And it will dm you if you forget to add alt text, if you have the app for that Vicki, please put it in the chat. Also Richard said hilarity and info.

      So Andy's method is perfect. Cool. According to one person.

      [00:16:36] Jon Payne: So, um, we, we've got lots of questions to get through. Um, uh, can you tell me, do you think we need to do some headlines about equality or do you just want to jump into the questions

      [00:16:50] Joyann Boyce: I can summarise it. Agencies are shit, the marketing is getting better.

      [00:16:58] Andy Thornton: Nailed it,

      [00:16:58] Joyann Boyce: But people in power are still old white men , marketing content's kind of shifting, but everyone's doing it for capitalism stick a plus size models, stick a black person in there. Forget about it for the rest of the year.

      [00:17:10] Andy Thornton: It's so true. It's so true. And it's true for all marginalisations, uh, identities that are marginalised.

      Where they're... I always thought it was a really good thing. I was always like, oh great. Like we're seeing ourselves more. And then you're like, no, it's actually awful. Because then these companies look like they're really progressive and actually everyone doing it is, um, still and old white guy..

      [00:17:39] Katie Roberts: Had a question about that. I believe about how just to jump straight into it. Cause I'm queen of segues, um, about how, uh, shall I paraphrase?

      Yeah, I'm going to,

      [00:17:49] Jon Payne: Also I think actually Sunjay's got an interesting point on this as, as well. Um, ask you a question and then let's go to Sunjay because he had, we were discussing stuff like


      [00:17:57] Katie Roberts: Cool. So the question was something about how companies can be sort of actively and vocally, I guess, more inclusive.

      So using better stock imagery but they were talking about how, how do people go about being of actively inclusive, particularly brands or companies without coming across as virtue signalling?

      [00:18:21] Jon Payne: And, I guess, tokenism as well, maybe.

      Yeah, definitely.

      [00:18:25] Sunjay Singh: I'm not sure if that is the question that Jon lined me up for, I have an opinion either way. I, I don't know. Maybe, maybe my, I think the first point is none of us in this, in this stage of, of dramatic change and, and much needed change, the world is going through. No one is going to get it 100%. Right?

      I think that's, we all just have to own that. I think that's part of the territory. I think I personally know. I think I know I've been the token coloured person in marketing material. I have had way more opportunities to do photoshoots than any of my other peers. And I don't really have anything against that, because if I'm all you got roll the dice on Sunjay, like it is what it is.

      That's like, because somebody has to do it. Like what, again, like you said, what's the alternative. I think it goes back to intent as Andy very rightly mentioned. If it's like, yeah, let's put Sunjay on the, on the flyer, but really that's where diversity ends. Yeah. I'm not game, I'm not, I'm not doing that, but, but if it's a case of, Hey, we understand we've got a problem, we've got a plan to address it.

      Do you mind, you know, being part of it? I think that's fine. I think where I also have an issue is when I was younger. It was trying, they let people try to do it covertly, just like, but we will know there's, there's not a person of colour or a person like in a marginalised identity that doesn't know they're being used as a token.

      So just tell people, you know, we do a lot of recruitment videos right now, and I think we need to just explain to the people who are minorities in the, in that workforce. Hey, we'd love to, we'd love to increase that diversity increase inclusion. That's going to need a bit of help from you. Is that okay?

      And I think when you have an open conversation that, that I think that works. That's probably my, my bit on it.

      [00:20:14] Joyann Boyce: And consent is sexy. It gives the person the opportunity to say no, versus all of a sudden they see their face everywhere.

      [00:20:21] Sunjay Singh: And, and also, and that's a really good point because if they say no, you've got much bigger problem than what your imagery looks.


      [00:20:30] Jon Payne: Yeah, yeah. You've got to get above the problem. I think the thing I was thinking about that you were mentioning Sunjay is about the companies that, that claim they're making change. And for how many of those that changes coming from the leadership level. You had some interesting

      stats on that.

      [00:20:45] Sunjay Singh: Oh yes.

      Yeah. So yeah, I read a report recently. The, I think it was 79% of organisations that were surveyed, said diversity and inclusion is a, uh, as a top priority. And then of the same companies, only 30% were, uh, were actually having their CEO or a founder MD actually involved in that change or planning, which for me.

      means, this is probably not much of a priority and it brings up a wider point of, we do have to treat this as a business challenge as a business problem, because only then will we take it seriously? The more we think about this as some sort of like fluffy soft. Oh yeah. It's just other box-ticking thing that we're never really going to solve it.

      So it has to be a business challenge, a business problem. So, and it's got to start, you know, the fish stinks from the head down, doesn't it. So,

      [00:21:33] Chloe Smith: but I do think that's a really important point that it's not often touched on DE&I like it, it is a business case, like it's going to affect your employee retention and your overall turnover.

      So actually being inclusive, hiring people from marginalised groups who are amazing and do their job really, really well. Um, it's going to help your business all round, regardless.

      [00:21:56] Azeem Ahmad: The only thing I just want to quickly add there. Um, and it's quite frustrating, really. So before I tell you about my frustration, I'm immediately drawn to think. So look, there's a whole bunch of marginalised people as panelists here, and we might be about to disagree on some stuff. So if we disagree between ourselves, not that we speak for our entire communities, but if we disagree amongst ourselves, how must it be for all these businesses who are talking about making a change?

      The only bit that I find frustrating, I will qualify by saying this is personal opinion. There's always an excuse for stuff not to happen. There's always an excuse. Oh, we'll be more inclusive this year. Oh, by the way, a pandemic starts. So we can't be more inclusive. There's always something like literally a couple of years back when I started talking about this topic, I literally talks about the financial aspects of it because I thought that would help drive businesses to move forward.

      I was like, oh, you can, you can literally make more money. If you have a wider spectrum of diversity in your boardroom and you make better decisions, I can literally show you every stat under the sun that that proves what business doesn't want to make more money. But then, because it involves going through this pain that we spoke about earlier on people don't want to get that uncomfortable, even if it means making more money.

      And there's always an excuse and there's always a reason to hide behind it. And speaking purely from my own experience, it's really frustrating. It really gets me angry to the point where I probably would swear, but I'm going to try not to. Um, there's always a, there's always an excuse, like for example, COVID or something else, like, there'll be something else that comes out next year to say, oh, um, we couldn't do, we couldn't be more diverse because of this.

      So we had to trim the workforce or all sorts of nonsense. And I just think change. Isn't going to come until there's going to be one big company that goes through that pain publicly and just lays basically their demons bare and says, look, we're not very good. We're not very good. At this one example I gave in my conference talk was like, literally look at your stuff from top to bottom and don't do a generic report to say 3% of our stuff are diverse.

      That means sod all to me, if you break it down to every level of authority and say in our boardroom zero in a whatever level, you call below the boardroom upper management... one., and look at it like every year release that information. And if it goes backwards to be brave and say, why use your excuses in that document? If it goes forward, great, you are literally trendsetting for the whole marketing community, but I'm personally sick of it.

      Sick of every excuse that comes under the sun. Like we can't be more diverse because of X literally nonsense.

      [00:24:37] Andy Thornton: Couldn't agreemore.. Also, can I just add something to that? Um, it it's absolutely the reasons not to do it. People don't want to be caught being wrong. They think it's better to not talk about it.

      It's something that I've been reading Me and White Supremacy, which has been amazing. And it's something that took about a lot in that. Of like, you're going to get it wrong. It's the same with people in me being trans. You going to get it wrong. Fine. That's actually having a conversation about it. And I think there is this is culture around.

      We see it with, um, in politics with like, uh, MPs not accepting responsibility for what's happened. We see it with businesses like hiding kind of what's happening. People aren't going to say, actually, you know what, we're really racist. We really transphobic we're really homophobic, but we're working on it that they are never going to do that.

      And that means that you're, you're not going to actually commit to a D&I campaign because to do that, you have to admit you have a problem. And I think Azeem, that's a really good challenge to everybody on this call. Admit, you have a problem because everybody does. And what, what are you going to do?

      [00:25:52] Katie Roberts: I think, um, unless anybody had any, anything else to add on that topic?

      That's oh,

      [00:25:58] Jon Payne: Going on. I've got a little thing. That's okay. Um, um, and I'm not doing this just cause we're doing a HubSpot event, but actually I, I went three years ago, maybe pre pandemic. We went to a HubSpot partner event in Dublin and uh, they said, we're now going to talk about diversity and inclusivity of three white dudes got up on the stage and I was like, jeepers creepers, please don't do this.

      And I've just, I mean, I was absolutely dying and thinking, this is just going to be so cringe and then. This is our problem where the people are in charge of diversity and inclusivity. And we realise that this doesn't mean that there's just a problem with diversity and inclusivity, because we don't have enough, um, uh, people from underrepresented communities on this panel.

      It means we're not representative of all the people we serve. So we need to, so the first change we're going to make. Is, we're going to hire some people to basically be on this panel and tell us how to do this. And I think that, and I was really inspired by them because it started out as me being all holier than them going good grief, really?

      And then they changed it around and they, I think they're doing exceptional work. No one's, as you say, Azeem, we're always going to disagree on how people do it, we're always going to disagree on whether people are doing it fast enough, but, and this isn't a HubSpot, but it was something that I, if I was truly inspired by the fact they went, this is our problem.

      We need to own it and we need to change it. And we have to throw money at it. We have to go and hire some amazing people so that they can come and sit in these seats and change the business. And they're on that journey now. And it's, it's really good. Um, in fact, Oscar who, um, runs the hug, um, uh, uh, um, initiative, um, it, it's just a joy to speak to because he's, I don't know whether he was part of that initiative, but you can see that, that, that, that, that really empowering people, um, to be able to live live their real lives.

      When I was on a call with them, a corporate call with a company that's traded on the stock market, you had a BLM banner behind him, and I'm not that well, you don't get that. If you call it a McKinsey, um, you don't get that. If you're calling Ernst & Young , this was, it was really lovely to see that .Winds neck in.

      Um, uh, I'm sure there are more, we probably should do more questions.

      [00:28:11] Katie Roberts: I'd love to hear from the

      panelists on this question about, so I, it would be really good if we could hear from everybody on this, because I think that there is. Different specifics based on your background and how you identify and things like that. And don't want to use the wrong language.

      Um, one of the questions that we've got is, um, I've read a lot then in order to hire a diverse range of people, you have to do the work before you employ them. Not because you've employed them. How can you make marginalised people feel like they will be safe working with you? Does that make sense as a question?

      Cool. Andy you want to start, you have a no... Chloe?

      [00:28:51] Natalie Lam: I can start

      having spoken in like 15 minutes. So, um, yeah, I, I think for me, I can only obviously speak from my experience, which is working with a company who is, I guess, ethical. Of course there are faults, like there are with most companies. Um, but I think that what we try and do is obviously where a company that sort of represents activism in some ways, particularly environmental, um, and.

      On social media, digital, everything, everyone perceives you in this world that we're in. And so it's important to basically represent other people through your content. That's so obvious, but for example, and obviously truly mean it, of course. Um, but for example, on our socials, we've spoken about stop asian hate.

      We've spoken about BLM. We talk about intersectional feminism and, um, intersectional environmentalism to show that our activism, whatever it is that we're talking about is intersectional. Now that's just one part of it. Um, and what we do, but we also work with stuff, um, like a diverse range of influencers, for example, of all different backgrounds, sizes, um, bodies.

      And also we partner with organisations across the world. It doesn't matter what country, um, as long as we can help them we will. And especially if somebody wants to work for you that bad, they will research you and they will see these things. And that will encourage people to apply to work with you.

      Again, I'm only speaking from my experience, but you could see organisations like business partners, for example, or, you know, just people that you're associating yourself with.

      [00:30:26] Katie Roberts: I think what the, um, that's like so useful in terms of like what the company are doing actively so that you know, that they've got like morals and put their money where their mouth is and all of that.

      And I think what else this, this person means it's like you as an east Asian woman, would you, how would you feel like you would be safe and respected and sort of valid, I guess, going into a company, if they say they just had loads of white people there, like, what could they do. Before you started working out that would make you feel safe as a Chinese woman, for example.

      [00:31:01] Natalie Lam: Yeah. I think

      my answer still applies because I would see that they care about these things and are happy to work with, you know, just different kinds of people. It doesn't necessarily have to be Asian or Chinese people, but just marginalised people. I, you know, if they care about one group in theory, they should care about others.

      [00:31:19] Katie Roberts: True.

      [00:31:20] Jon Payne: Do you think that's changed since you started working there Natalie? Or was it a policy that they are already doing? Um,

      [00:31:26] Natalie Lam: I think

      it's changed, but that's because I think social media has changed in the past four years since I've been there. I also was not the first Asian person, so that probably helped

      [00:31:38] Joyann Boyce: It always helps when you're not the first, just on someone's comment.

      And that question, I think there's two aspects to it. There's especially in the industry we're talking about, there's the content and what you put out there and then there's working in the company, the working in the company. It is what it is because at the end of the day, a company could put out all the best content could be the most diverse and representative, but that culture could be shit.

      And that could be with any job. And it's what the difference I have in, in regards to someone saying the DNI statements have been like greenwashing. For me, seeing those DNI statements means I can question the organization. It might be bullshit, but if you put it on a job ad, I can question you, I have a right to question you because you stated it, you stated it in your values.

      And that's where for me will determine whether if I go to interview somewhere, I stay. If I go to talk to them, I stay. But if they don't have an opportunity for me to question it, then that conversation doesn't happen. I start working there and I'm like, Ooh, you on a slightly racist, I'm going to leave. I'm never going to mention it because the industry is small.

      The network is small, but if it's there. It being that is, allows me to question it and allows me to have a conversation, which it could be bad, but it also gives the company an opportunity to improve. So it's being vulnerable. And that's also why I posted that buffer link, buffer stats are shit it's been shit for years.

      I checked that dashboard every couple of years to be like that. Let there be one woman. Just my hope is always, if there's one CIS white woman in leadership, they've tried a little bit just, but I never is anyhoo, but they've publicly put it there and they've publicly put their salary there, which allows people to look at it before, know what I get it into.

      [00:33:22] Andy Thornton: Can I add something to that oh Sunjay? Are you laughing or do you want to say something.

      [00:33:28] Sunjay Singh: Both, but yeah, feel free, go first.

      [00:33:30] Andy Thornton: Cool. Um, yeah, I think, uh, Natalie, you nailed it. What you said, Joyann. I completely agree as well. Like it's, it's about say it, but it's also about doing the work. So when I was applying for Noisy Little Monkey, when I was looking for jobs, I was like, I am not doing this again.

      I am not working somewhere. That is not going to be inclusive done that. And I was looking on the webinar, that Noisy Little Monkey did it with Azeem and it starts with Jon it's like I'm shit at this help me, um, the fact that they were A doing it and B being honest, I was like, okay, that's cool.

      But then they're just saying that maybe it's just a moment, but the fact that we're Dice Certified, which means that, um, we commit to having a diverse, like range of panelists at any kind of event that we do. Um, that's quite hard to get, you have to put in a bit of work. And I think to me that was a big signal that like, if I turn up and someone gets it wrong and I tell them that they're wrong, they'll fix it.

      And that's the difference. I think the same with what you were saying too. And like, you can challenge people, you can say it, um, and put that in your job ads to be like, we really want to encourage, you know, people from underdeveloped, undeveloped, well, underrepresented backgrounds, um, to apply to this role because that's the priority for us.

      Here are the things that we're doing. That show that's a priority for us.

      [00:35:05] Jon Payne: Anything to add on.

      [00:35:07] Sunjay Singh: The only thing I would add is I it's, it's, it's a slightly difficult one for me because I haven't for a job since Costa is a very long time ago. So, um, I felt a little bit like I didn't understand that bit, but one thing that I have tried to do with our team is whenever there has been somebody, um, who's joined us, who, um, is from like a marginalised, um, group.

      I basically just said in no uncertain terms, I have got your back, like, whatever you need, whatever the issue is, whatever adjustments need to happen, wherever you hear that you feel is slightly off colour from whoever, even including myself, you speak to me. And I w I will immediately settle that basically.

      And I think that if I was working somebody somewhere, I would just want somebody with some level of authority on day one, just to say, Hey again, no, like no surprises. You're brown. You might cause, cause I think these statements are important, but as you said, it can seem like a, you can just say that. I just want somebody from the top to say, Hey, I'm going to protect you wherever you need is there.

      And we keep it moving and that's it because it's not, if you go into a workplace Andy you must have felt like into a workplace, you're always going to be thinking in the back of your mind, like something's going to go down. So it's just having a little bit, a little bit of protection. I think that's really key.

      So if you're a leader just do it.

      [00:36:34] Andy Thornton: Yeah, a hundred percent. Can I, the amount of times, well, when I first started, I was like, um, uh, Jon, a client, mis-gendered me on a call. D do you mind if I correct them, please? And almost like fucking of course what are you doing? You need, you need that. It's so important to have that.

      [00:36:52] Katie Roberts: Yeah.

      Chloe, did you have anything to add or did I see? Yeah. So

      [00:36:58] Chloe Smith: you caught me, um, all, all of the things that I thought from a completely different perspective, I'm looking at disability, um, because if a job out, since that remote work is available, then I'm going to jump in. I, I don't have this issue with clients where obviously they only see me from here up.

      So they don't, they don't know that I use a cane to get around, um, met one a couple of weeks ago for, in person for the very first time. And it was like, oh, hi, I have, I have the stick. Um, We the disabled people were asking for access remotely for jobs. Well, before the pandemic, and if we were told no, suddenly everyone needs access remotely and we all get it.

      And then that's slowly starting to, uh, starting to go away with, um, a lot of people kind of being forced to go back to the office and stuff. Luckily, my company isn't making me thank you if you're here. Um, but it's, it's all that kind of stuff like signaling hi, you can work remotely if you want. Um, it doesn't have to be for disability reason, but it just means that those people have access.


      [00:38:02] Katie Roberts: yeah, that's, that's a really important point to add, because I often think about the fact that we've got a step outside of our office. We've got a lift up to the floor, but there's a step outside the office. And I think about when I, when I've had like doctor's appointments have been upstairs and just so I don't have to think about that, but so many people would, and it's about kind of calling yourself out for thinking that, oh, I don't have to, it that's something I don't have to worry about, but I think just to, um, give the white guy some praise and his wife, um, if people are looking for like, if people are hiring, um, you and Nic and Tash have started anonymising CVS.

      So if. Do you have subconscious bias or even just are racist about like the assumptions you might make about somebody's name or somebody's gender based on a particular job role. They now don't see that because I think as Andy said before, acknowledging that you're going to get it wrong, sometimes it's kind of the start of it.

      So I think thanks, Jon. So I think, um, that is a really good, like starting point is like acknowledging that you might be the one that holds the bias and doing everything you can to kind of get rid of that. I don't know if that's a silly point to make, I've got imposter syndrome

      [00:39:17] Jon Payne: And we, we got that from Dr.

      Zahra Nanu who runs Gap Square. The, um, uh, Bristol company recently bought by a much bigger company because she's brilliant. Um, that, that measures, um, pay equality is that w is that while I do Joyann? You know better than me.,

      [00:39:35] Joyann Boyce: Yeah, she's my mentor and advisor. Um, humble brag, Side note. I haven't plugged any of my things. I will do that,

      [00:39:43] Jon Payne: We're going to definitely plug the things

      [00:39:46] Joyann Boyce: Gap Squared help to identify, uh, gender and race, pay gaps within organisations.

      So think of a huge organisation like, um, Vodafone who's been running for long years, that salary data will be backdated. So they take all that data and use machine learning to help them identify the biases across departments and countries and nations. And they've recently been purchased by FTSE 100 company.

      Can you tell them a bit of a fan girl? I know

      [00:40:11] Jon Payne: you and me, both mate, you and me both. Um, I

      [00:40:15] Sunjay Singh: can't believe, I didn't tell people to use video and show, not tell Joyann is so much better than me.

      [00:40:23] Jon Payne: Um, Azeem, did you have anything to add on that question before we move on?

      [00:40:26] Azeem Ahmad: Uh, my only sort of 10 to 20 second answer on that because everybody has everybody's answers were brilliant in terms of job interviews.

      One thing that I do subjective, you might agree or disagree is I like to suck them in first, at the end. So when you get to the end of an interview, excuse me, and they said, do you have any questions for us? I will typically say something like, where do you see the business in the next five years? And I just won't say anything.

      I'll just listen to the answer. Once they've finished their answer, I will say something like, and the phrase diversity is very broad brush, but I will say, how can I get you to be as passionate about diverse and inclusion as you are about the business and the next five years and how can I help you to do that rather than what I used to do before, which was literally sort of go on the attack on the offensive and say why they're not brown people and your board

      was literally, how can I help you?

      And just changing that phrase, they will know because it's not hidden that I'm a big passionate, uh, advocate for diversity and inclusion, certainly in the sense of people of colour. But when I rephrased my second question too, how can I help you? Changes, changes the game massively because it basically says to them subconsciously, you're not, very good at this stuff, but you're good at talking about your numbers.

      How can I help you be better at that? Diversity on your boardroom. Like I said, the start literally means more money. Why wouldn't you want a piece of that?

      [00:41:46] Katie Roberts: Yeah, I guess it's quite, it could be anyway, quite, I might be projecting here, but quite frustrating, feeling like it's your job to do when they should already be doing it.

      But I guess if it's, if it's going to get the conversation started, then it's working with the system, I guess. But Jon, do you want to pick a question? Yeah,

      [00:42:05] Jon Payne: let's do so let's do some quick fire ones. Can we go, we've got a few to get through. It's an easy topic. It's probably all yes or no answers guys. Um, um, so let's see.

      Okay. So what. We've got one that is, what's the best place to start with a diversity program. That's easy to answer because all companies are the same, same size. They're all in the same country. We've got an international audience by the way. So anybody who doesn't know what Costa is, it's an English British, um, coffee chain, I think.

      Um, and it makes pretty poor coffee, which is why they employed Sunjay

      [00:42:39] Sunjay Singh: since I left.

      [00:42:42] Jon Payne: Um, so what's the best place you're un-muted Sanjay. So I'm coming to you first. What's the base plate. What's the best place to start with the diversity programme?

      [00:42:50] Sunjay Singh: At the beginning.. Next question. Weird question. What's the best place to start.

      I think let's start with the end in mind. Let's treat this like a business problem. Look at your analytics. Where is the issue? What is the issue? What does success look like? Is it how many times you have Friday curries? Is it how many black people you have? Is it the proportion of like LGBTQ plus community that you have in?

      What is the issue? Like how, like treat it like a business problem. You wouldn't just say, okay, how do I make more gross profit? We've all got that problem. But you say, okay, well we could tweak this or there's this strategy? Where's the actual issue? Is it productivity? Just treat, I think just apply your business smarts to diversity and inclusion.

      That's where I would start.

      [00:43:41] Jon Payne: Brilliant. Great answer. Brilliant. Um, I'm gonna ask another one first one to one, be it gets to answer it. What's the biggest hurdle that most businesses face? Oh no. Excuse me. Not most businesses. Most people face when they're trying to start a diversity program. Um, can I ask Natalie?

      Yeah, yeah.

      [00:44:00] Natalie Lam: I'll try and connect. So if you would rather share,

      [00:44:04] Joyann Boyce: I was going to say get over themselves, but continue.

      [00:44:07] Natalie Lam: Um, that is actually a great one. Um, I think the biggest hurdles are probably thinking that you can, it's sort of, sort of like mindset stuff, but thinking that you should do it all at once.

      It's okay to, not necessarily to take your whole life, but you know, don't, you know, don't expect to totally transform your business in the next year, in the same way, Sunjay, I guess, reflecting on what you said, um, that, you know, you're not gonna grow your profits by 10 times in the next year, whatever. Um, As well as, and this is what this is kind of, this kind of goes back to what you said.

      Jon is thinking about white people can speak on behalf of minorities. Um, it's getting over. I think those two hurdles, those two things that are in your mind that you can do it yourself and then you should do it all at once. Just get people who actually know what they're doing and just like you would a job.

      Sorry, got a bit angry there

      [00:45:04] Katie Roberts: no, that was a good answer, mate.

      [00:45:06] Jon Payne: Uh, among Azeem and I you're among friends. When you get angry about anything, he and I are the most angry people on the call. I'm glad you could join us

      [00:45:16] Andy Thornton: I'm really glad Natalie that you're getting angry because I feel like, and I'd be interested to hear if you guys have this, you people have this. Wow. Yeah. Good one. Um, is that thing of, you have to be good about it. You have to be polite and you have to be reasonable and you have to sort of say, oh no, it's okay that you've got that wrong.

      But like, thanks for trying. And sometimes you just want to be really angry and be like, why am I having to put up with this? Um, and again, I come from like a reasonable amount of privilege and I feel like that. So I think that that's can be really difficult. Um, and I've had experiences where people have been like, oh, will find though, because you're really nice about it.

      And I'm like, yeah, but the people who aren't nice about it, like I'm with them, you better. Um, so yeah, I dunno if anyone else has that experience,

      [00:46:12] Joyann Boyce: oh, I don't know if anyone could tell I'm very cynical about it all.. Like, if you ask me a stupid question, I will make you feel dumb because it will stick. If you feel embarrassed, you more likely to remember, and not do it again.

      I am that person. If you ask me where I'm from, I will go all the way back to my great ancestors being from Bristol. We can, we can do this all day, but any hoo

      [00:46:32] Sunjay Singh: That's so funny. Cause I'm such a people pleaser like this, people think I'm Muslim, like Italian or just, I just, yeah, that's it bro.

      Yeah. Yeah.

      [00:46:43] Joyann Boyce: I would've been like happy Hanukkah to him and just walked away. If you're going to mess me up, I'll mess you up. If you're going to do this, we can do this. But again, like I said, there's a different approach. It's where everything


      [00:46:56] Andy Thornton: should all be more Joyann.

      [00:47:00] Katie Roberts: I think that's what we've all learned from this.

      [00:47:03] Jon Payne: Um, we've got, we've got 10 minutes left of our allotted time and, um, I'd like for the people on the call to be able to go back and do whatever it is they're supposed to be doing in their lives, but, but hopefully changed a little by being on the call. Um, I said that I'd asked you all, what's the one thing you'd like to see change or that you would change or what's one change you'd like to see, um, uh, in, in the marketing sector.

      Um, uh, so yeah, what's the, what's the thing you'd like to see changed, um, over to you. And then we'll have time for plugs because we've got a plug, Azeems podcast, Sunjay's video company, Natalie's podcast, Chloe's SEO company, Natalie's podcast, and Joyann's amazing, uh, company and we'll come back and do all of that.

      But what's the one thing you'd like to see change first.

      [00:47:54] Azeem Ahmad: I don't mind going first as the. It was a bit of awkward silence. One thing that I've said before, and one thing that I'd love to see change is that any company that has a leadership bonus, it should be scrapped and it directly tied to a diversity inclusion initiative.

      Therefore, if a company does not diversify in the next year, Joe blogs, who can pay themselves a million odd, whatever in bonuses or however much, you shouldn't get a bonus. If your company is not diversified simple as that, because then it's directly tied to the person or persons at the very top of the business.

      And that stems right the way down until I think there was a comment earlier on about paying people. It's a known fact, everybody on this webinar, whether you're a panelist, your attendee, we all know. And no matter what part of the business you're in, whether you're hiring people or not, we all know that people who are typically marginalised and I often use the example of people, of colour and women they aren't being paid fairly.

      And if they're not, I include myself in that. Then neither should the leadership team. Simple as that, and that's my two Pence

      [00:48:55] Jon Payne: smashing,

      [00:48:59] Joyann Boyce: I think to go off the bat of that. So I was going to mention, I don't know if anyone saw the gender pay gap bot that literally pulled up all the tweets and said, Hey, you're celebrating women's history month, but your pay gap is shit. I want that across the board. I would want that to be a thing of where marketing and I know this, kind of shoots me in the foot when I promote what I actually do.

      But marketing has to come back and be like, Hey, if we're going to talk about this, you lot need to do some work. So we can really talk about this. So the pressures both ways. Cause I feel like a lot of the time it's one sided either the internally that pushing something, but it not speaking about it doing diverse content or they're doing diverse content and they're not doing anything internally.

      I think the relationship needs to be both ways. So that would be my change.

      [00:49:45] Jon Payne: Cool. Brilliant. Thanks. Joy Ann. Joyann. I apologize and move on. I think,

      [00:49:54] Natalie Lam: um, change, I don't know how to say this and they're very articulate way is, but, um, it's for people to just stop being snobs. And the reason I say this is because, um, I feel like a lot of companies, particularly in marketing, because obviously it's sort of, um, writing skills, for example, are required is they only hire people who have gone to university.

      Um, and I think that is very unfair because I think a lot of people know, hopefully that the people who aren't going to university are the marginalised people, for whatever reason, whether that's race, um, able-bodied or disabilities, um, or, um, other reasons sorry just totally forgotten. But you know, if you're only giving people who have gone to university have the chance, then of course, of course it's only going to be white people at the top, you know?

      So that that's mine

      [00:50:48] Chloe Smith: I want to see more campaigns that don't just have one person that makes it diverse. I want to see like campaigns with just as many different types of people as possible. Um, I want to see disabled people and black people and just everything. Um, it would be grand, um, that that's mine

      [00:51:11] Jon Payne: love it

      [00:51:13] Sunjay Singh: Apart from, and I always say this more diverse greeting cards, sick that I can't buy cards, just have white people on there just like pink characters and there is hood greetings. But anyway, apart from that, um, I think the I'm okay, and this is might be a bit controversial, but I'm okay. If your sole reason for introducing more diversity and inclusion into your business is purely to drive profits.

      So let's not hide that fact. Let's just do that. Cause then I think we take it more seriously. Let's look at, okay. We want to, you know, a 25% increase in profits this year. What strategies can we use? We'll up our SEO spend and this needs to be more diverse. Um, I'm okay with that because even if the intent at the beginning, isn't great.

      I think once people start seeing the benefits, that'll, that'll drive change and, and if that's going to push us in the right direction, let's just do it. Let's go for that. As opposed to the, um, virtue signaling the like look how fun and friendly we are. Cause it just, it doesn't last.

      [00:52:14] Andy Thornton: Yeah, these are all so good.

      Um, I'm going to cheat and do two, uh, which is just stop assuming that's the first one, but it's like what Joyann said, right? At the beginning of people guessing where she's from or I've had recruiters call me and I've said, hello. And they've been like, oh, I thought you were a man. And I'd be like, funny story.

      I am my Alexa's talking to me.

      Stop. That's embarrassing. Next thing is, do your homework. third thing is, um, thinking about your criteria. So Angharad, I asked a really interesting question about class. Um, I'm really glad Chloe, you talked about disability cause I feel like disability is one that... Like trans people don't have an awareness problem.

      We have an acceptance problem that every Daily Mail reader knows about trans people disability. Often it's not even thought about, do you know? Like we're not even at that level yet. Um, uh, we still have a lot, like, I mean, I don't, I know no-one here, I have to tell them, like, everything's still pretty racist, but like those issues within not even of colourism or within even, um, neurodiversity, there's a big thing about how people seem to think that only white people can be trans.

      Um, and yes, there's way more trans people on television, but that all white. Um, so like, think about things that you don't see, but also understand that your entire world view and the things that you think are good or not good, like having a degree, are based on kind of like. Dodgy criteria are based on, um, the patriarchy on colonialism on transphobia.

      And if you can start listening to people who work in this like Joyann, and I'm so excited for your blog in a minute, like listen to Azeem's podcast, like, you know, and actually kind of engage with that, then you're gonna start being able to unpack that worldview. But unless you're doing your homework, you've not got a


      You're not going to magically wake up and be better.

      [00:54:30] Katie Roberts: Dodgy

      criteria. I'm obsessed with that.

      [00:54:33] Jon Payne: Um, I'm obsessed with consent is sexy. Someone said you should make that into a t-shirt Joyann and I, um, I think that was true, um, to finish, um, we've, we've all got stuff that we do, um, that we'd like to, um, publicise, um, so we'll do that and also who you work for.

      Let's give them a shout out. Um,

      I know I was thinking of Chloe actually, cause she, she skipped around the issue that she works for Blue Array um, out of politeness and I think they need a shout out because they're doing great stuff. So, um, yeah. Um, give us a, a quick minute on what you've got to sell before everybody leaves. Um, uh, Azeem your, I bet you're framed and ready to go because you're already wearing the t-shirt.

      We'll start with you, everybody else. jump in real quick!.

      [00:55:21] Azeem Ahmad: Right. I'll be really quick. Yeah. So my podcast is called the Azeem Digital Asks Podcast. Why that's relevant is because I try to amplify the voices, uh, typically of women, people of colour, and those who are, uh, often marginalised. So rather than white guys, sorry, Jon.

      Um, I will look to give those people a voice. So please go and check that out. Um, my website is iamazeemdigital.com. Um, if my SEO is really good, you should be able to type, " how can I contact Azeem?" And my details should be there, but if not, I'm on Twitter azeemdigital, but yeah, please check it out.

      And at the very least, if you listen to one episode, two or tens, do me a favor, go to that person who was a guest and say that I really enjoyed that because they're often marginalised and pushed back in the industry. And that will really value a small, thank you even if it was just, hi, I love this episode.

      You do that for me. That will mean a lot to me. Thank you very much.

      [00:56:17] Jon Payne: I love that dude.

      [00:56:21] Katie Roberts: Joyann.

      [00:56:23] Joyann Boyce: So I've dropped my link. I run an inclusive marketing consultancy call to Arima & Co. We help brands to create inclusive strategy to make sure their marketing is representative all year round. And we're building a platform to identify bias in marketing content. So think of it as your friendly companion, that will help you use inclusive language and imagery.

      There is a link in the chat that tells you what inclusive marketing is. If you've never heard about it. Thank you.

      [00:56:51] Katie Roberts: Chloe would you

      [00:56:51] Chloe Smith: want to go?

      Sure. You can tell that Joyann's rehearsed that a couple of times. I love it. So I don't have a podcast or a nice tool to plug but I do shit posts on Twitter all the time, um, and mentioned my, the company that worked for Blue Array. Um, so they are the largest pure play SEO agency in the UK.

      Um, there's 50 odd of us..., um, it's chaos in the best way. Um, but yeah, uh, probably best place to follow me at ChloeIvyRoseSEO on Twitter,

      [00:57:25] Jon Payne: uh, his Blue Array hiring at the moment, Chloe?

      [00:57:28] Chloe Smith: Always

      [00:57:31] Jon Payne: just everybody's hiring. So I just want to keep getting that shout out to make feel that anybody who's in the delegates can talk to Chloe about what it's like to work at blue.


      [00:57:43] Sunjay Singh: Life media, UK, we're a video marketing agency, so we can help you show people how a welcoming you are and the best bit is, um, for a fee. I can be a token employee of yours. You put me on the video. There's one. I won't wear a turban. That's where I draw the line. Thanks.


      [00:58:14] Natalie Lam: Um, guess I currently work at Natracare, but I'm actually leaving in like three weeks time lols. So, um, I'm going to Greenhouse Comms, but either way I I'm fighting for climate change. Um, so yeah, I follow Greenhouse GreenhouseComms follow Natracare at Natracare, follow my podcast, which is about intersectional feminism at justagrilpod.

      I run it with Katie. Um, and.

      That's all.

      [00:58:40] Andy Thornton: Is it me? Yes. Okay. So I work for this agency. You probably haven't heard of them, they're called Noisy Little Monkey , I'm obsessed with them. It is like the first place I've ever worked, where I like, forget, this is a weird thing to say, but I forget I'm trans because I just don't have to think about it. Um, it's amazing.

      Everyone. There is amazing. And also they're so good at their jobs. Um, so we're, uh, hiring always, but yeah, about to be hiring. Um, so come and work with us, please that's great and follow me on Twitter, HumanSatsuma.

      [00:59:20] Jon Payne: Did we get everybody's tweets and, uh, you can see me and Katie doing this stuff for HubSpot at the Sales Enablement HUG, which is where you signed up for this.

      Go and look for sales enablement stuff. You can see us at Digital Gaggle. Um, you can follow us on Twitter. Follow me. Okay. I'm MrJonPayne on Twitter. No, H in Jon, um, Katie don't follow up on Twitter. I don't know why, but you can find her on LinkedIn where she is a fricking big deal. That's um, thanks ever so much.

      Thank you so much to our panelists. You are really gracious and kind, um, with your, um, uh, with your time and with your expertise and your knowledge. Um, I really enjoyed this. We've got so many questions. We didn't get a chance to cover. Cause I started coming in while we were talking about

      [01:00:05] Joyann Boyce: We should do a conference HubSpot sponsor it.


      [01:00:11] Jon Payne: Okay. Maybe we can get HubSpot to sponsor our diversity conference. Didn't we get didn't we hear that Areej might host, you might host where, when, when you were mentioning it, that'd be good. Um, maybe that'll come next. Um, thank you again so much. Thank you everybody for joining in. If you've got any more questions, put them in that form because I'm going to be sending out a questionnaire to these people later and see what happens.

      Thanks. Have a good one.



      Jon Payne

      Founder and Technical Director of Noisy Little Monkey, Jon blogs about SEO and digital marketing strategy.

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